Set up Etherpad for Hacks/Hackers

[Cromian]

Hey everyone, Samantha Sunne wanted to know what are the chances we could deploy our own hosted version of Etherpad to act as the central repository for all monthly calls and committee calls? If Google Docs is not working out perhaps it makes sense for us to set up something on a subdomain for the interim while we flesh out the rest of the site?

https://github.com/ether/etherpad-lite

@burtherman @phillipadsmith you guys know more about the current hosting infrastructure what do you guys think?

[burtherman]

@Cromian I'd be up for setting up anything you need to make that work. Right now we have pretty basic web hosting enabled with Hostgator, definitely open for discussion on shifting to whatever makes sense so we can do more to create ways to collaborate

[phillipadsmith]

@Cromian Yes, indeed, we spoke about setting up Etherpad today in fact.

It's not possible to host it on a shared hosting account, so it would need to get installed on Heruko or Linode or something along those lines.

The question is: Who would like to install it, and keep it updated? Cautionary tale (true for all software, not just Etherpad): the entire Mozilla Etherpad infrastructure was recently disabled due to a security concern -- so it's not an "install it, and forget it" project.

We just today discussed an "awards" program for chapters that took on projects like this for the larger H/H network. Is this the kind of project someone in your chapter might be open to taking on @Cromian?

[Cromian]

Possibly. But do we think this is a worthwhile alternative to Google Docs and deserves our time to invest in setting it up? Perhaps setting up a media wiki may be better since it automatically organizes and indexes content on creation and can be single CPanel setup click.

I suppose the bigger question is are we looking for live text editing or a centralized repository for information that people can access and easily edit? My hunch is that a media wiki may be easer as HostGator will handle security and other updates through simple install. Thoughts?

@hackshackers/action-group-website

[phillipadsmith]

@Cromian Thanks for cc'ing the others.

Re: Etherpad -- Yes, several members have proposed it as an alternative to Google Docs for the open calls and as a resource for the entire H/H network.

The role that Etherpad plays in Mozilla's distributed work is instrumental. It's the go-to live, collaborative editing tool used by many of their teams, committees, and volunteers.

I was just speaking to Matt Thompson -- one of the people at the Mozilla Foundation who thinks about this a lot, http://blog.workopen.org/ -- and the verdict my take away from his observations is that Media Wiki is not new-user friendly enough (requires archaic markup, doesn't support collaborative editing, doesn't have line numbers, etc.) to be as instantly useful as an Etherpad.

I believe there's consensus around the Etherpad endeavour. At the moment, it's not easy to find a no-cost, secure, supported version of Etherpad -- that is a real-world problem that H/H could solve fairly easily for its members.

My vote is 👍

Keen to hear from @hackshackers/action-group-website ! :)

[phillipadsmith]

Two related questions:

1. If there is a need to develop relatively static content in preparation for a website update in the future, what is the best place for us to do that, i.e., a place where input can be captured, edits accepted, and so on. My personal obsession right now is GitHub, and from experience would propose simple text files in a repository vs. a wiki. And yet I'm keen to hear what others think.

2. I would propose that there is definitely a need to move hackshackers.com (and any related sub-domains) to its own hosting account. The existing account, as @burtherman can attest, is a bit of a hairball and quite intertwined with other domains. This is making the assumption that there's a need for hosting at all, and that what needs to be done down the road couldn't be done with something as simple, and low-cost, as GitHub pages. [Edit: forgot to add the question! So, if there's a need for hosting, where should that be?]

This is a great conversation! Many thanks for kicking it off, @Cromian. :-)

[thomaswilburn]

Etherpad seems fine, but I think we'd need a solid reason to move to it over Google Docs. That's my bias as someone who hates doing server maintenance, though.

Related question 1) I would think it'd be reasonable to move the site and static content to GitHub pages. Even just storing MarkDown/RST in a repo is a good way to share documents. I do this for my classes as a way to keep my tutorials, and it works really well. See also https://github.com/thomaswilburn/itc210-resources/blob/master/ec2_wordpress_and_git.md

Question 2) If you need hosting, EC2 and Digital Ocean would be my choices. But GH Pages or S3 both seem cheaper and easier to me. S3 will require someone to have an AWS account and credentials, so GH Pages is probably the simpler of the two.

[burtherman]

The current web hosting server also does a lot of email forwarding, like for groups having a generic "[email protected]" address that forwards to other people. It's easy to set up, the downside there is we can't use gmail on the domain with that other forwarding set up.

On Etherpad, it does seem that's the choice as we do need something live and collaborative more than a wiki would provide. My sense is for wiki-like stuff to use Github Pages or Github's wiki function (which @phillipadsmith tells me is out of fashion now)

[Cromian]

Haha looks like I'm old fashion. My only concern as both @thomaswilburn and @phillipadsmith brought up is that upkeep and setup requires time that we as a group may not be fully ready for. Thats why possibly we want to look at a solution that can be easily managed through the cPanel system until we have a better direction.

I just found this http://participad.org its Etherpad on Wordpress, seems like a possible middle solution that will work with what we have now. Ironically I used to work at the place that developed it so I can contact them to get some more detail.

@burtherman is the DNS management set up through HostGator or another system like CloudFlare?

[burtherman]

@Cromian DNS management is with Hostgator, but I think we do also have something running with Cloudflare. Does Cloudfare take over all DNS functions if it's enabled?

[Cromian]

@burtherman not necessarily. We just set it up where CF handles all domain management. It allows to have a cluster like environment where the domain can be pointed to different servers, boxes, and hosting providers. Moving the DNS to CF in the long run will allow us to keep our existing box while giving us the ability to set up servers elsewhere (dev box e.g.) if we want to explore other solutions with minimal disruptions. As for group emails is that on Hostgator or Google Apps?

[burtherman]

Group emails are on Hostgator through the cpanel. It's pretty crappy, definitely would prefer something else. We do have Google for Non-profits which means we get to use Google Apps for free. We just would need to port over all the forwarding stuff unless there's an easier way to do that?

[Cromian]

Not sure, but I think the Google Apps move may be a good task for the group to set up, especially if we think our future solution may not necessarily require us to use HostGator.

[phillipadsmith]

Quick thoughts on the above (great conversation!):

Etherpad seems fine, but I think we'd need a solid reason to move to it over Google Docs.

It's a good point. My take on the "solid reason" is that A) members have asked for it without us proposing it (based on their experiences with the Open News calls and elsewhere), and B) for many of the reasons outlined here, i.e., no log-in required, line numbers to refer to on a call, and authorship colours.

Perhaps a mid-way point is trying an Etherpad for the next open call and then deciding if it made a big difference.

I just found this http://participad.org its Etherpad on Wordpress, seems like a possible middle solution that will work with what we have now.

As far as I can tell, Participad still requires that Etherpad is installed on the server. I don't know of any way around that step.

The reason I don't think it should be installed or run on Hostgater is because I receive notifications when the hackshackers.com site is not accessible, and I can tell you that I receive A LOT of them. Hostgator does not appear to be reliable or sufficient for these needs.

Not sure, but I think the Google Apps move may be a good task for the group to set up, especially if we think our future solution may not necessarily require us to use HostGator.

💯 on this idea!

Moving DNS and e-mail away from Hostgator would start down the path of untangling all of the various moving parts of the H/H web infrastructure, making it easier to work on each independently (and possibly for chapters to be in charge of various parts).

Three cents.

@monkeycycle Any thoughts?

[Cromian]

Great points! Agree, we may want to test using it on a call before we make the jump. With that in mind the next questions would be:

• What are the security issues we may deal with?
• Where should we host it?
• What kind of budget do we have?
• Point people for setup / upkeep
• How do people access it? (can anyone create a pad or should creating be restricted to a few but anyone can edit it?)

Personal question: Once a pad is created, how can one go back and reference it?

[phillipadsmith]

What are the security issues we may deal with?

I would propose that like any web-facing app, there would be a need to secure the environment its running in and the database its using, as well as keeping system-level packages updated.

Where should we host it?

Per the conversation above, @thomaswilburn was proposing Digital Ocean. I'm personally more familiar with Linode, but I'm guessing they're quite similar. Any VPS provider would probably do the trick.

What kind of budget do we have?

I don't think hosting costs would be an issue.

I have a proposal that I'm about to send to the organizers e-mail list about "awards" to chapters for taking on projects that benefit the whole H/H network, as a way of keeping resources in the network vs. paying an outside resource to do the work.

Point people for setup / upkeep

The proposal mentioned above was going to put forward the idea of a rotating stewardship of resources, e.g., Chapter X would be the steward of pad.hackshackers.com until November 2015, after that other chapters could step forward.

How do people access it? (can anyone create a pad or should creating be restricted to a few but anyone can edit it?)

Pads are usually open and don't require registration or log-in. That's part of what makes them so useful. Pad spam doesn't really seem to be a big issue.

Personal question: Once a pad is created, how can one go back and reference it?

Many ways: bookmarks, Chrome's awesome bar, and there are also Etherpad plugins that allow for creating a list of pad bookmarks that live in Etherpad itself.

[samanthasunne]

I definitely agree we should try running a monthly call on Etherpad and see if it makes a noticeable difference. Mozilla seems fine with us using theirs - maybe next month let's just hold the call on one of those.

I talked to Ryan Pitts at Mozilla about how he dealt with the security issue, and he shared these notes. I believe they ended up using etherpad-lite, which Misha linked to earlier.

If you’re looking to run your own instance, or sign up for an org account at a different service, this is definitely where I’d start.

If you don’t necessarily care about running your own, I think you can use Hackpad, etc., for free if all your pads are public. And Mozilla is running an instance of Etherpad Lite (the replacement, more secure version) here: https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/

OPTIONS

1) Run our own instance of etherpad-lite

There's even a Heroku-bundled version we could use, which (in theory) makes this easy to get up and running.

Advantages

• It's basically the etherpad we know and love

Disadvantages

• We own it, so if it starts having problems, we own them
• Not sure what size of instance we'd need to have this be robust enough for public use -- likely either the $7 or the $25 monthly tier

2) Sync.in

A slightly modernized version of etherpad. Looks fairly similar, still has chat, etc. Pads are private to the team by default, but can be flipped public. http://cynapse.com/sync-in/features/

Advantages

• Has a desktop app
• Can search across pads
• Can bulk export all pads
• Works with SSL
• Support service with pro account
• Pads can be named
• Supports TEAMNAME.sync.in workspaces

Disadvantages

• It's a service that could go away
• Would be $10 a month ($2 per user per month, minimum 5 users) -- need to verify that this means regular public pads are still fine

3) Hackpad

Far more modernized version of etherpad, with a lot cleaner design. Also offers private and public pads. Hackpad is owned by Dropbox, and Dropbox recently announced a kiiiiind of similar product called Paper, so I’m not positive what that means for the future of this one. https://hackpad.com/

Advantages

• Looks really nice
• Automatic navigational TOC to right of pad, based on content headings
• Easy to see who's editing what
• Can organize pads into "collections"
• Integration with Dropbox for file storage (Hackpad is owned by Dropbox)
• Can move pads into "moderation mode," where changes must be approved
• Pads can be named, however names will always be followed by a unique char string
• Can embed media
• Can search across pads
• Can @-mention another pad to create and/or link to it, can @-mention users, also supports #hashtags
• Users can "follow" a pad to get emailed updates
• HTTPS by default
• Can bulk export all pads or individual pads (as HTML/Markdown/plaintext)
• Supports TEAMNAME.hackpad.com workspaces
• Reasonably mobile friendly

Disadvantages

• Again, a service that could go away
• No chat? I think?
• Active user list not as prominent
• Text in content area is not color-highlighted per user (which some might see as an advantage)
• Users must log in (Facebook/Google/email address)
• Private Workspaces are free for up to 5 members, and then cost $2/user/month

[Cromian]

Great points @hackshackers/action-group-website ! Sounds like the next reasonable step would be to move this to a feature request/task and follow up after next months call as it seems we are all in agreement?

[Cromian]

@hackshackers/action-group-website after this last call do we think we should move forward?

[phillipadsmith]

after this last call do we think we should move forward?

@Cromian Many thanks for picking up this thread again! :-) What would you propose as next steps?

Also, FYI, I had forgotten about this:
https://github.com/dropbox/hackpad

Removes one of the disadvantages of Hackpad if that was an interesting option (though, I'm personally in favour of Etherpad Lite per the discussion above).

[Cromian]

I think my only reservation is the server upkeep. With the limited time the community has, I think the conversation is no longer about should we set it up but how do we do it. Perhaps we postpone this until we figure out the rotating stewardship of resources?

[phillipadsmith]

With the limited time the community has, I think the conversation is no longer about should we set it up but how do we do it.

Agreed.

Perhaps we postpone this until we figure out the rotating stewardship of resources?

Short of another plan/proposal, I tend to agree.

I think my only reservation is the server upkeep.

Agreed. It doesn't sound like a "set-and-forget" project, i.e., it might need some fine-tuning, debugging, and so on.