Selection issues introduced due to mixed-mode

[ibrahimrahman]

Problem

Single click navigation leads to a few different issues and annoyances relating to selection of folders:

1. In list and column view, if the window is full of folders and all of them are selected, it becomes impossible to deselect them using the mouse. If only some of them are selected, trying to deselect them by clicking on a different folder opens that folder.
2. In column view after selecting multiple folders, if a selected file is mis-clicked, all of the selected folders are opened in new tabs. This is especially problematic when dealing with a large number of folders.
3. In the other views, this does not happen. However It is unclear how to open multiple selected folders (single clicking them doesn't sound like a good idea, as explained in point 3).
4. Often I will select a file/folder with my mouse, press ctrl+x/c, navigate to a different window/tab using the mouse and press ctrl+v to paste, or use a keyboard shortcut to rename the folder etc. Using the mouse and keyboard shortcuts in combination for quick actions has become much more cumbersome now.
5. When scrolling with the mouse, if I choose to start scrolling with the keyboard, I must start from the beginning, since that is the current "selected" file. I could use the blue select icon to select a folder and resume scrolling from there but if I wish to select multiple folders, I will have to scroll to the very top and deselect the first file/folder. Plus it is very easy to miss the blue icon and click the folder (and open it) instead, especially if the icon sizes are set to low in list/column view.
6. When navigating through folders and arriving at the target file, it doesn't always register in my mind to double click it (especially in column view).

Proposal

Problem number 3. could be solved by opening selected folders using double click, while in mixed mode but this is something that will always be confusing.

All of these issues can easily be solved by allowing an option to use double-click for navigation.

It has been argued in the past that mobile devices and the web don't offer double-click for navigation and the introduction of mixed mode aims for more coherency but it must be kept in mind that on the web the user typically opens a link using the mouse, and at most copies or downloads it. In a file manager, selection, dragging, actions like copy/paste, rename, multi-select etc play a major role. Mobile devices, on the other hand, are a completely different scenario where everything is touch/tap+hold based and for selecting and copying items, the whole window adapts to display checkboxes etc. On a computer, the keyboard is used in combination with the mouse/touchpad and the usage of single-click/mixed-mode has thus far only hindered this combination.

Allowing an option to use double-click would not break the design of elementary, and will be incredibly helpful for those who need it.

[jeremypw]

Converted to discussion as it covers a number of different related issues with different possible solutions. Issue reports should be limited to a single discrete issue.

[jeremypw]

I do not think there is any prospect of reimplementing a (hidden, non-default) double-click mode any time soon. However, mixed-mode probably does need to be fine-tuned.

1. All can be deselected in ListView by clicking under a column other than Filename. It is true that the keyboard is required in ColumnView (as it was before with the default single-click mode). If it is accepted that all operations must be doable without using a keyboard (which is not unreasonable given touch-only devices) then maybe we need to add a "Deselect all" option to the context menu.
2. I think this is a valid concern. I am not sure new tabs should be opening at all (they don't in other views). I'll open an issue on this.
3. Multiple folders should be opened with the context menu.
4. You can single-click select a folder by using the helper or holding down the <Control> key while you click or, in ListView click under a column other than Filename or in IconView by using rubberband selection.
5. Scrolling with the keyboard is not really a thing. You are moving the keyboard cursor. The view scrolls as required to keep it in view. This is the behaviour of the Gtk widget.
6. There is bound to be a learning curve with a change in behaviour.

[ibrahimrahman]

Hi, sorry for the unnecessary ping. I had replied to you but as a separate thread. I'm unsure if you were notified or not. Please do give it a read if you already haven't, or ignore this otherwise. Thanks!

[cassidyjames]

1. Is a good suggestion, filed at Add select/deselect all to context menu #1903
2. Looks like you filed this here, I've confirmed it Clicking multiple selected folders in Column View opens each in new tab #1731

[ibrahimrahman]

Thank you for moving this to an appropriate place and for your response.

1. All can be deselected in ListView by clicking under a column other than Filename.

You're correct. Previously I was clicking on the empty space under file name column. It's probably just me, but in my mind, I thought clicking at nothing should deselect. I still do see a slight inconvenience with this method which is that one must always flick the mouse unnecessarily to the very right of the screen. As screen size increases (especially with ultrawides), this might become even more inconvenient.

3. Multiple folders should be opened with the context menu.

I see 2 problems with this.

1. In order to do this one must right click > wait (a little) > point to Open in > wait (a little) again > point to New Tab and click. This conflicts with the idea of the OS getting out of the way. When opening things with double click, I don't usually give any thought to the process itself. Just double click and get to the tab i need. Here I have to wait and focus on three different steps for something as mundane as simply opening multiple folders. It's the little things that elementary does that aren't even too noticable, that enhance the overall experience, but it's also little inconveniences like this that break that experience. This is made even worse because:

2. One has to be very precises when opening a context menu. Clicking anywhere but the folder name/icon deselects everything. Please see the gifs below.

It is incredibly easy to miss the target and lose the entire selection

4. You can single-click select a folder by using the helper or holding down the key while you click or, in ListView click under a column other than Filename or in IconView by using rubberband selection.

As with the previous issue, it is very easy to miss the helper icon and open a folder instead. See gifs below. And if a file/folder was previously selected (usually the case when using keyboard arrow keys) one must manually deselect it before using the helper or the key. It could be at the very top and the user might never notice it. This can be avoided by not using the helper and using columns other than file name (for at least the first selection) but this can be bothersome (especially when working with larger screens) since the attention when selecting things is usually on the file names. It is unclear how this would work with column view. With double click, one doesn't have to give a second thought (or any for that matter) to these little things and can just focus on the task at hand.

5. Scrolling with the keyboard is not really a thing. You are moving the keyboard cursor. The view scrolls as required to keep it in view. This is the behaviour of the Gtk widget.

I meant navigating here. Using the arrow keys to navigate up and down a list. Often times when looking for something in a large list sorted by date, I will arrive at the general time period that is relevant using fast scrolling and then switch to keyboard centric usage for actions. I realize now that I can do this by selecting using a column other than file name but it still isn't optimal. It is also unclear how it would work in the column view without opening the folder itself.

For comparison, here are a few gifs of me performing these actions on my 5.1 machine with double-click enabled:

1. Deselecting without a second thought:

3. Opening multiple tabs using double-click:

4. Quick cut and paste:

5. Scrolling quickly and then navigating using the keyboard:

I have been using elementary OS since Luna and though I have tried the single click workflow every now and then, I have always found it way too inconvenient owning to little issues here and there that pile up, and have always ended up enabling double-click through dconf-editor. I hope my feedback is helpful in some shape or form

[jeremypw]

one must always flick the mouse unnecessarily to the very right of the screen.

I don't see this - you need only move to the beginning of the "size" column, which depends on how wide the filename column is. Agreed that if you use Files fullscreen (I hardly ever do) it is potentially quite a distance. I have a vague feeling that at one time there was a proposal that the whitespace in the filename column behaved like one of the other columns, but that could be confusing as the amount of white space varies.

One has to be very precises when opening a context menu. Clicking anywhere but the folder name/icon deselects everything

That depends on the icon size you are using. You can click anywhere on any selected icon or between them or on the white space before or after the icon, which for "normal" size icons is a pretty big target. You can always press the "Menu" of course. However, I think you are right that right-click should not, in general, cause deselection. In fact, that might be a regression. I'll look into it.

The problem with activating multiple selections too easily is that there is no limit to how many items might be in the selection. Opening 10,000 items might be problematic.

Coming from Windows I too found single-click took some getting used to but its natural to me now.

[ibrahimrahman]

I don't see this - you need only move to the beginning of the "size" column, which depends on how wide the filename column is. Agreed that if you use Files fullscreen (I hardly ever do) it is potentially quite a distance. I have a vague feeling that at one time there was a proposal that the whitespace in the filename column behaved like one of the other columns, but that could be confusing as the amount of white space varies.

I use it fullscreen, and though it is not a huge distance on my display, it is still something that doesn't feel natural. And when trying to select a specific folder with this method, I must take my eyes off the target folder, make sure that I'm hovering over the corresponding entry under Size and click. Again, unlike simply clicking on the folder, this goes against the idea of the OS getting out of the way and feels distracting. Additionally, since the position of the size/type/modified columns is not always static (for eg. when a folder contains long names under Type), it becomes a little harder to develop muscle memory for this stuff

That depends on the icon size you are using. You can click anywhere on any selected icon or between them or on the white space before or after the icon, which for "normal" size icons is a pretty big target. You can always press the "Menu" of course. However, I think you are right that right-click should not, in general, cause deselection. In fact, that might be a regression. I'll look into it.

Please see the gifs in my previous comment under issue 4. You can see that it's an issue with both, normal and small icon sizes. With small icon sizes, if you take a closer look, you'll see how easily you can even hover onto the next folder by mistake and have to re-move the mouse again (this was unintentional when recording the screen). Having a high dpi mouse could also further complicate it.

The problem with activating multiple selections too easily is that there is no limit to how many items might be in the selection. Opening 10,000 items might be problematic.

With double click, you don't usually open that many folders unintentionally. And such a rare case (opening a very large number of folders) shouldn't make a common case, i.e. opening a few folders much more complicated. It can also be addressed by adding an option to close all tabs in the tab bar's context menu. Which could be followed by a confirmation dialog. (Actually this doesn't sound like a bad idea regardless of the issue IMO)

Could you please also address the other issues I highlighted, and the comparisons I demonstrated using double-click? Is it really a positive change if you're losing a lot of ease just for the sake of opening folders with a single click?

Coming from Windows I too found single-click took some getting used to but its natural to me now.

It's nice that your workflow has adapted to it. Unfortunately mine hasn't even though I have been using elementary since Luna. I don't it is fair for the developers to decide their users' workflow based depending solely on their own experience. When asked about usability testing for this, I remember Cassidy stating that formal testing wasn't done. And that single click had been the default in elementary for so long so it just made sense.

I feel like this disregards genuine issues people have with being forced into a specific workflow and doesn't constitute to a good UX, especially if that workflow creates more issues than it solves. Please also remember, that while it may be quite normal for long time users, there will always be new users who aren't used to the workflow. Many of whom will be dual booting widows. And unless they're fully committed to leaving one ecosystem for the other, they will always be faced with this issue, and so there will always be complaints (a friend installed elementary on my suggestion a few years back and the first thing I was asked was how to enable double-click. The friend recently expressed interest in trying out linux distributions again and I suggested to wait until 6.0 is out. However, I will probably not be recommending it this time because I know that there will be issues that will break their experience).

Not really that significant but people who dual-boot/use multiple systems with different OSes will always find it inconvenient. Of course there are huge differences when switching between systems, but while things like remembering locations of close button, app launchers etc can be dealt with in milliseconds, performing unintentional actions (opening a folder while intending to select it, actions on multi-selections etc) will always require more actions to undo the mistakes

Single click navigation kind of makes more sense when using the trackpad (hovering on a filder, and pressing without lifting the finger to open it), but as a primarily mouse user, I keep finding it intrusive and riddled with small issues that don't need to exist. I am not against it though. I just don't think that it is fair to get rid of double-click completely. Especially when issues surrounding single-click/mixed-mode haven't been addressed properly. The best of both worlds would be an option for people to choose their preference.

Will it be possible to still have discussions with users regarding this? Hearing feedback from normal users before implementing, on forums such as reddit, where you find regular people who use your products for various different purposes?

[jeremypw]

Perhaps @danrabbit or @cassidyjames would like to comment?

[cassidyjames]

There's so much here that I don't think I could possibly address all of it. But the gist of my response is that we've use single-click since the beginning and been engaging with users for nearly a decade, iterating and improving as we go. Mixed Mode specifically was in response to working with both users and an external designer to further improve Files. It was in testing for months and we did discuss it with folks on the issue tracker, Reddit, etc.

A massive thread like this that may raise several valid concerns is just not approachable or actionable by designers or developers, though; like @jeremypw mentioned, breaking the issues down into individual concerns means we can actually discuss and address them one-by-one instead of having to spend an hour reading a huge backlog that covers several topics like this one.

[janxkoci]

As @jeremypw said:

I think you are right that right-click should not, in general, cause deselection. In fact, that might be a regression. I'll look into it.

This would be awesome if you could fix that.

[abodedis]

It always surprises me that single-click/double-click navigation is an issue that causes such heat, to the extent that for some it is a make or break issue. Given that, for elementaryos, the goal is that the filemanager should never need to be used, it is not surprising perhaps that there is no appetite to support two modes and a mode was chosen that was thought to be acceptable (if not ideal) to the most users, accepting that a single mode will never please everyone. It is perfectly acceptable to propose a better single mode experience but your proposal seems to be to use double-click mode which would alienate all fans single-click mode. I doubt that reverting to two modes with a hidden setting is likely at this point.

At the end of the day, there are distros that aim to reproduce the Windows, or MacOS, experience as exactly as possible to cater for users who are unwilling or unable to change their way of working. Elementaryos is not one of them.

@jeremypw Please expound on the bolded portion.

[jeremypw]

This is just something I remember the project leader saying some time ago. If you view the computer as being used for a series of real-world tasks then there should be an app for each of those tasks which will carry out any required file operations transparently. I never use the filemanager on a mobile phone for example. Perhaps I should have said the filemanager should not be needed for real-world tasks (which for most users is the point of having a computer). So the priority is to develop the apps.

[janxkoci]

The massivenes is already in the first post, which is what he was reacting to.

[ibrahimrahman]

Is it really though? I highlighted 6 problems (that don't need to even exist) that arise due to mixed mode. 3 of them were sort of related to each other. And i proposed one very valid simple solution which fixes all of these: double click.

Cassidy said that it would take an hour to go through all this. Would it really? My OP is like at max a 3 minutes read. It course it would take longer to go through all subsequent discussion. That's true for any discussion or issue thread that has high participation. The OP was not massive in any way or form, and not was it so active when he replied. Although it may have seemed so because i later on attached screenshots as a response and demonstration and they take up space.

But the intention behind this discussion is very simple and has always been: double click is a requirement for many. Mixed mode doesn't solve issues but rather creates them.

[andrewdbate]

@janxkoci Yes, I had read the entire comment, and I had even read it before you kindly linked me to it. However, I have to say I agree with @sagacitysite when he says that this thread really is about one thing. But you are right, this thread is going nowhere.

However, creating a separate issue that is clearly only for restoring the double-click option (as you suggest) also seems to go nowhere either. Issue #1892 was opened, and then closed, with the reporter told that the issue was a duplicate of discussion #1877, which then refers back this this discussion. So we really are just going round in circles here.

[ibrahimrahman]

#1800 was also closed without any input from the design team. It seems wrong and disingenuous to suggest opening individual issues regarding this problem and then proceeding to close them without any consideration, while actively avoiding any criticism or issue raised by the users. So far, what this discussion has at least achieved is that at least here we are able to collectively bring up issues without being pushed into an out of sight, closed issue list.

But this being actively avoided by the team is just not a way to move forward. The discussion will keep getting larger, separate issues will keep getting closed. Issues cannot be solved by pretending they don't exist. It just makes everything worse

[jeremypw]

In addition to raising focused issues, there is another discussion thread at #1896 aimed at making the selection/navigation behaviour a better compromise for all users short of supporting two different modes. Remember that there are also users who prefer single-click mode.

[abodedis]

I see. When you say "file manager" do you mean Files the app, or something else?

[jeremypw]

I mean Files the app - or any similar app. Obviously, file operations can always be carried out in the Terminal by those who know how.

[abodedis]

Makes sense. Certain real world tasks, such as music or video watching, have a corresponding app (Music, Videos) that are intended to handle those tasks, respectively, and handle any file management for those tasks transparently.

Similarly, the task of File Management is the responsibility of Files. Content creators, coders, and anyone in real life wanting to manage a bunch of photos or videos or code, and organize/store them in Drives using a folder scheme of their choosing. Files should be copied, moved, and managed transparently, without the user needlessly being paranoid that something will go horribly wrong and obsessively check a system monitor.

Regarding Files on a mobile phone, this may actually be possible because of Files' excellent layout and interface. Elementary OS is already designed/optimized for touchscreens, which means tablets, which means phones. The single click behavior is already a big step there. Dismissing a mobile version would be premature. :)

[ibrahimrahman]

It always surprises me that single-click/double-click navigation is an issue that causes such heat, to the extent that for some it is a make or break issue. Given that, for elementaryos, the goal is that the filemanager should never need to be used,

Because for almost every regular user of a desktop operating system, file management is critical to their usage, regardless of whether they're a new user or an experienced one, technical or non technical. Yes, mobile OSes don't require a file manager but a mobile OS is not the same as a desktop OS, nor are their goals the same. My father is not a technical user and doesn't need a file manager on his iPhone, but take away the file manager from his computer, and his entire workflow will be crippled. Pretty much every student out there who uses a computer to study needs a file manager to manage their documents/projects/etc of various formats. The list really is unending and to suggest or expect that just because not using one works for you, it will be the same for everyone is an incredibly narrow minded view. This is not a photos or a videos app where there is only one goal and one way to reach it. It is an entire OS that's been made to help facilitate users what they need to do.

This philosophy regarding file managers really needs to be reevaluated and their importance researched upon. As the elementary HIG state, design in not your opinion. It should be reasonable, well researched and open to the various use cases that it affects. I think what also needs to be reviewed is how the developers view their users. The OS is marketed towards new users, but a new user is not the same as a novice user who doesn't know how to use a computer. New users need to get things done as well, and they don't always remain a new user either. They too grow, and as do their requirements and usages. Actively discouraging them from using a file manager or anything that revolves around their workflow is not a good way forward; it is a hindrance.

At the end of the day, there are distros that aim to reproduce the Windows, or MacOS, experience as exactly as possible to cater for users who are unwilling or unable to change their way of working. Elementaryos is not one of them.

By asking for double-click, I and others aren't asking elementary OS to replicate the workflow of Windows or MacOS, we're asking for a basic "feature" that is integral for file management.

Perhaps I should have said the filemanager should not be needed for real-world tasks (which for most users is the point of having a computer). So the priority is to develop the apps.

But they are. Normal users use them everyday. Just imagine, what the reaction would be if elementary OS decided to ship without a file manager? Would the uproar be because it's just different from the norm, or would it be because an integral part of a system that people rely on was taken away? (for me personally, Files most used 1st party elementary app.) Focusing on app development should not be an excuse for not making file management in elementary as good as it can be

PS: for visibility, @aral's issue and comments in #1800 (comment) are worth reading

[jeremypw]

It is questionable whether the user should need a filemanager to arrange their data in a way of their choosing. The app should allow this through its own interface. At most the Filechooser portal needs to be involved. In elementaryos this is currently provided by Gtk anyway (apart from the pathbar) so mixed-mode does not apply. In the FileChooser you do have to double click to open a folder.

[janxkoci]

Sorry but I don't understand this logic. I'm not only a graphic designer. I'm not only a programmer. I happen to be a scientist. I work on projects that involve many file formats, for most of which there is no dedicated app (or there is more than one). I have folders with mixed contents full of scripts (in a few scripting languages), jupyter notebooks, input and output files, PDFs of scientific papers and software manuals, images and graphs, office documents with data spreadsheets and manuscript drafts. And I listen to music when I work, or sometimes an internet radio.

And sometimes I don't work, I watch movies, browse the web, or even write it (I actually started doing that in part thanks to elementary OS and its app ecosystem).

This is of course not unique to only scientists like me. Students do more than one thing. My mom does more than one thing. My dad does too (actually his primary use of his elementary laptop is to backup files to hard drives).

So, I don't really see how all of this could be expected to be managed from within a multitude of apps, when every other system is using file manager. (FYI I bought file manager for android, because I use it a lot and I wanted to support its developer. It allows me to quickly check progress of my jobs on a cluster or copy files directly between the cluster and my dropbox. So cool 😉 )

Don't forget that your users are not just one-dimensional personas, but real people with jobs and hobbies, using computers for multitudes of purposes. Some of those purposes are a bit more complex than what a Music app or Drawing app can handle.

[abodedis]

I'm afraid I may have misunderstood and now I'm more puzzled than before...

[jeremypw]

I agree that the goal of making the filemanager virtually redundant is some way off - which is why I still work on it. But the design is up to the UX team - I cannot merge anything without their approval.

[ibrahimrahman]

Why is it necessary to make the file manager redundant? How does it improve a workflow, especially in cases where multiple fomats are being worked upon? And why is it already a goal when the process of using individual apps to get things done is not there yet

which is why I still work on it. But the design is up to the UX team - I cannot merge anything without their approval.

I'm apologize if I've sounded harsh in my comments, it really isn't my intention. Thank you still for the work you've done and for taking an active part in these discussions!

[jeremypw]

The fact that the FileChooser does not behave the same way as Files itself is definitely a flaw (imo). I think the intention is to eventually to have Files provide the FileChooser portal entirely.

[abodedis]

[ibrahimrahman]

The mixed-mode/double-click issue is definitely not politically charged lol. There's no one telling the devs what to do. They decide it for themselves, and the team really isn't that large for there to be such a divide. I believe only Cassidy and Daniel are full time devs. The issues arise when the philosophies go against the workflow of their users. But that has nothing to do with politics

[abodedis]

Sometimes after such a heated discussion it takes a cool off period to realize that I have gone too far. Apologies to those whom I may have offended. Thanks all devs for the continued work and support.

[jeremypw]

Just to be clear, the file manager is not currently redundant and will never be completely so as there will always be devs and power users who want to deal with the underlying filesystem. But "ordinary" users should be able to accomplish their work without going near either the Terminal or the FileManager - although even this is not yet achieved.

I have no strong preference for single-click or double-click mode (or mixed-mode) tbh - as long as the interface is consistent I can adapt after a short period, but I can appreciate that if you have to work with both Linux and Windows (or MacOS) you might want to be able to configure them both to use the same mode.

[ibrahimrahman]

Just to be clear, the file manager is not currently redundant and will never be completely so as there will always be devs and power users who want to deal with the underlying filesystem. But "ordinary" users should be able to accomplish their work without going near either the Terminal or the FileManager - although even this is not yet achieved.

This argument doesn't work when you consider the fact that not just devs/power users, but every non-technical person uses and needs a file manager. On a mobile system, this makes more sense. You open your chat app for messaging, youtube for your videos etc. But beyond web related apps, most of the operations on a desktop computer are performed on files. Ordinary users interact with folders and files of various formats and in most cases, individually opening a seperate app and individually browsing to the desired file from there, doesn't just sound inefficient, it makes no sense at all! My father, who is a non technical person, has loads of work related files. Take away his access to a file manager, and his work would be crippled. My late grandmother knew how to use a file manager and for good reason! Because it is integral to a desktop operating system.

Consider the following hypothetical, but very possible and extremely non-technical situation:

Your friend gives you a USB stick telling you there's some interesting stuff on it. Do you:

1. Open a file manager and see what it contains?
2. First open a pdf viewer and browse to its location, only to find that it shows up as empty (there are no pdf files). Then you do the same with your word processor application. Upon no success you try your powerpoint software, and still find nothing. You never deal with a basic notepad but just for the sake of it you open it with your text editor application just to find a .txt file that says sike! Now that can't be all there is so you try your photo viewer app and that too comes up empty. You try your video player and end up getting rickrolled by a video titled "watch me.mkv". Frustrated, you complain to your friend who asks if you did not see the zip file on it. You sigh and you:

• either open it with a file manager, right click the zip and click once on "extract here" and browse the contents
• or you access the usb with your archive manager, extract the zip file, close the archive manager and start your trial and error of trying a pdf viewer, word processor, image viewer etc all over again

What would you, a non techincal person choose to do?

I have no strong preference for single-click or double-click mode (or mixed-mode) tbh - as long as the interface is consistent I can adapt after a short period, but I can appreciate that if you have to work with both Linux and Windows (or MacOS) you might want to be able to configure them both to use the same mode.

The issue is that single-click navigation makes performing operations on folders a nuisance, without adding anything of value. Maybe it helps your muscles if you are the trackpad user (must be researched upon), but as a mouse user, I fail to see any benefit at all. What does it add to the experience to make up for complicating operations on folders? And what was wrong with double-click navigation that was so important to fix that making operations harder was a fair trade-off?

[abodedis]

But "ordinary" users should be able to accomplish their work without going near either the Terminal or the FileManager - although even this is not yet achieved.

This is reasonable for mobile, but not for desktop.

Elementary's potential is a hybrid mobile/desktop, which is potentially innovative and makes experiments like File Management on Mobile and a dedicated app usage model on Desktop possible.

Your friend gives you a USB stick telling you there's some interesting stuff on it.

Use the File Manager, because I know that my friend likes to troll me with infinitely nested zip files.

The issue is that single-click navigation makes performing operations on folders a nuisance, without adding anything of value. Maybe it helps your muscles if you are the trackpad user (must be researched upon), but as a mouse user, I fail to see any benefit at all. What does it add to the experience to make up for complicating operations on folders? And what was wrong with double-click navigation that was so important to fix that making operations harder was a fair trade-off?

From my understanding of elementary's history, double click was never intended to be supported. However, in prior versions, double click could be enabled by Tweaks. Now it has been permanently removed.

Once elementary 6 becomes more mature, I plan on dual booting Windows. This is when things get interesting, because every time I switch, I'll have to reset my muscles for double or single clicking, which will make me less effective at both operating systems. Windows is still required for MS Office Suite and Adobe Creative Suite, and some games, hence the need to dual boot. Other users with similar needs will probably become very frustrated with the mixed mode operation if using alongside Windows.

Therefore, I would prefer a toggle option for single/double click navigation, but if forced to use single click navigation, I could imagine tolerating it, as long as the overall user experience is significantly better than 5.1.7 for my particular workflow. Important things such as: less random crashing/glitches, faster performance, better aesthetics, more default apps (wish: draw/paint, a modern system monitor), more convenience features, etc.

[janxkoci]

The issue is that single-click navigation makes performing operations on folders a nuisance, without adding anything of value.

I think it's meant to improve consistency of the whole computer experience. I have personally seen several people double-clicking links on the internet.

[ibrahimrahman]

I think it's meant to improve consistency of the whole computer experience.

Yeah that is their aim. Issue is, in a web browser or apps made for specific purposes, the main functionality doesn't usually go beyond clicking items/links to open them, whereas a file manager is made for managing files and folders. You don't only open folders, you perform operations on them as well. The push for this very slight consistency hurts the functionality of the file manager

[abodedis]

What if Elementary's purpose is not creating Yet Another Traditional Desktop, but something else?

We are here in in this phase of their road map giving feedback as desktop users, and we may be wrong to assume that they have to design only for us.

Instead, they will take bits and pieces from Desktop that mesh with their vision.

Things that we or our parents think is a Desktop (keyboard, mouse, monitor, Windows/MacOS) will be different in the future. For example, we already see Traditional Desktop and Mobile blending with use of touchscreen and touchpads.

Plus, there's game consoles, VR, IoT etc., and they all have a lot of users.

There's a huge non-traditional desktop user base and new ways of working will be invented.

That could explain why they think the way they do.

[ibrahimrahman]

Elementary is focused primarily on the desktop. It's the folks at Gnome who're taking a mobile first approach

[janxkoci]

What if Elementary's purpose is not creating Yet Another Traditional Desktop, but something else?

And I'm all for that. I enjoy many things the elementary designers and devs create.

But I don't see a functional desktop without a file manager. I know that partly also because I have and use a file manager on android too. It's very useful at times.

PS: sorry, also this:

Things that we or our parents think is a Desktop (keyboard, mouse, monitor, Windows/MacOS) will be different in the future.

This might be true, but some things won't change so much. I still use terminal, bash and awk at work to process huge genomics data files from modern DNA sequencers. There is no app for that. Oh wait - it's called the Terminal 😉

[sagacitysite]

Just to add another opinion from the community:

I use Elementary as a power user nearly since it's beginning. What I most like is the highly consistent interface. Even though I'm a developer, I like it beautiful. I really find it disappointing that I'm now forced to install an alternative to Files, just because the team is not willing to optionally allow double click. The default setting is irrelevant for me, but I really don't get why such an intense discussion is necessary for an option.

I mean, if there is a convincing reason for not providing the option (like it's maybe a lot of programming work to implement it in the new Files app), it would be comprehensible. But following this discussion, it seems more to be like an ideology (at least I could not find any convincing reason in this discussion for not providing an option).

I cannot repeat it often enough, we're only talking about an option! :)

[janxkoci]

As I understand from reading the discussion, the problem is in designing as well as maintaining the code for two separate modes of operation, with conflicting philosophies and design patterns, in a single app. It is a lot of hassle (as I understand it). It's not just a toggle in "Preferences" (note that Files don't even have them).

Not to mention how some options can block further innovation, if one of the options is in design conflict with some cool new feature.

[ibrahimrahman]

So far the only complication listed is this: #1729 (comment). And it is far from being impossible to solve, should effort and attention be put into it. Good solutions have already been suggested in that thread.

It is a lot of hassle (as I understand it). It's not just a toggle in "Preferences" (note that Files don't even have them).

It actually was a simple (hidden) toggle since always and has been removed just recently in the Odin release.

Not to mention how some options can block further innovation, if one of the options is in design conflict with some cool new feature.

Is it though? Is work being done to completely redo the behavior of a file manager? Because from my experience, (good) file managers are already quite efficient at what they're supposed to do. If we were to remove everything that could conflict with some future innovation, we'd probably end up with a blank file of code.

Wouldn't it be a better idea to investigate the possible conflict when it actually arises, and see if it can actually be solved? If it absolutely cannot, wouldn't it be better to then consider the benefits of the new feature and compare them to the downsides of removing the old feature, and then going ahead with it only if they are substantial? Or rethinking how the new idea is approached? Wouldn't that lead to the best possible scenario? You wouldn't remove wheels from your new flying car if it means landing it becomes harder, would you?

For what it's worth, as I've mentioned before, Gnome's Nautilus, KDE's Dolphin and even the Windows file manager, all allow switching between single- and double-click modes. All of them offer better functionality than elementary's files (with Nautilus being more like files and the other two, more feature-ful), and none of them seem to suffer from issues arising out of providing optional click-modes.

[jeremypw]

@sagacitysite Thanks for your input. Do you feel forced to use an alternative to Files because, like has been said elsewhere, you have to switch between Elementary and e.g. Windows (or another os that mandates double-click)?

[sagacitysite]

I'm a Linux only user for many years. I sometimes work on machines with other Linux distros installed. For me, it is often (not always) faster to work with a file explorer instead of the terminal (especially when I want to organize/rename some files quickly). My workflow became very optimized over the years and I'm very used to it. I don't like it too much when I'm forced to change my workflow. Could be that I decide in, let's say, 3 months that I want to try mixed-mode and I'm happy with it (I constantly try new things). But I want to try it when I'm ready to change my behavior, not when someone else thinks that I should change it. And honestly, I think that many people in the Linux world think like this. I mean: That's an important reason for using Linux. Otherwise I could also be very happy with macOS.

I love elementary very much and I would also love to see that more people are using it (I'm constantly recommending it to others, techs and non-techs). But if I install elementary for e.g. my 60 year old mum and she complains that the file explorer is doing unusual things. What should I say? "Sorry, the Elementary developers think it's the best for you that you get used to it." I don't think this is a convincing answer ;)

So please: you have a mission, you made such a great work and came very far, don't risk the love of your community just because of a missing double-click option! It's not worth it :)

[jeremypw]

The main complication with double-click mode in Files is that it does not play well with the Column View, where double-clicking on a folder has a different result to a single-click (it makes that folder the root of the view whereas a single click opens it in a new column), but other than that it is not too hard to support. Personally I think if it were to be reintroduced then it should be officially supported and exposed in the UI. However, that is a design decision.

[sagacitysite]

I see this point. For me it would be okay to leave the behavior in column mode as it is (also when double-click is activated). It would be somehow inconsistent, but would still be intuitive and meet my expectations. But others may think different about it.

[ibrahimrahman]

The user can also use middle mouse click and open that directory in a new tab. I used to do this in Hera when using column view and actually found it kinda convenient to still be able to go back to the previous layout with a tab switch

[ibrahimrahman]

I see this point. For me it would be okay to leave the behavior in column mode as it is (also when double-click is activated). It would be somehow inconsistent, but would still be intuitive and meet my expectations. But others may think different about it.

I agree with this as well. It might not even be that inconsistent since when you select a folder in column view the context is not lost even if the directory opens in a new column, i.e. you can still perform operations of that folder, select others etc which actually stays in line with double-click behavior in other modes.

It is actually more inconsistent in files currently since you can easily select and perform operations on folders in column view but not in other ones

[jeremypw]

I would push back on mixed-mode making folder operations "difficult" - they do require slightly different methods which may take a little getting used to if you were not previously using the default single-click mode. I do understand however that, for some, the change may be difficult, irritating or confusing especially if having to switch between OSes.

[ibrahimrahman]

A difficult change can be justified if is just a change, not a complication, and offers an improvement. Just now I was copying my older folders from an external hard drive. I had to think carefully about what I was doing and where I was clicking instead of just mindlessly selecting with mouse-> ctrl+x -> switch tab with mouse -> ctrl+v. I also mistakenly opened a folder instead of selecting it. I don't regularly switch between OSes (I'm playing around with fedora these days but that's a rarity) and haven't used windows for a long time. I do perform actions on folders all the time like copy paste etc though which I am finding to be a pointless downgrade. What am I exactly gaining by using mixed-mode here and why is it worth making something as simple as a copy paste a tedious process?

My review of the mixed-mode setting:

It has been about three weeks (depending on when Odin released) of me using mixed-mode instead of double-click and still every time I'm about to select a folder to do something to it, I have to stop myself from just clicking it and think about what to do. And I often find myself opening a folder when I didn't mean to. I don't want to think about these things; I want to think about things that actually matter. Thankfully, I don't currently have any project or work going on, which would have made everything much more frustrating. After three weeks, I have become used to clicking a folder once to open it but:

1. I often just single click a file and then have to double click it again to launch it. I assume this would require even more time to get used to.
2. The moment I have to do anything other than opening a folder, the annoyances come back and I'm met with speed breakers that don't actually need to exist.

How much time does elementary recommend that a user spend with mixed-mode to become accustomed to it? For me it has been three weeks and beyond just opening a folder, it feels like a mess. If all new and old users don't unanimously become accustomed to it within a week (when I suppose the new OS is still fresh and shiny; after that, focus goes back to focusing on work etc and having the OS stay out of your way) is this something that should be recommended to users to try on their production systems, on which they have to work/study etc? Apart from just quicker navigation, what benefits over a double-click does mixed-mode introduce? The downsides have already been presented in this discussion. What balances them out?

What would break if there was an optional and non-default double-click mode for those who do need it, and could it not be fixed? Or even improved? That is what issue trackers and discussions are for after all! Currently all major file managers i.e. Nautilus, KDE's Dolphin and even Windows Explorer allow switching between single-click and double-click mode. My guess is because they aim to facilitate the user's requirements instead of enforcing their views which is very important when dealing with something that almost every user uses for all kinds of purposes

[jeremypw]

I think at this point it is up to the elementary designers to answer these points (if they haven't already done so elsewhere).

Depending on which view you are using you may find it easier to get into the habit of using rubberbanding to select (In ListView any area except the icon can be a starting point) or holding down a modifier key e.g. Ctrl before clicking. With the Ctrl key held down you can click once anywhere to select.

If a problem is that the target area of the helper is too small, giving rise to unwanted activations, you could raise an issue suggesting it be made larger.

A more radical suggestion would be to have a "navigate" helper rather than a "select" helper so that single-click would always select except on the navigate helper.

[janxkoci]

These are some useful tips. But are you sure about this part?

In ListView any area except the icon can be a starting point

Because if I start on a file/folder name, then it starts dragging the file/folder as if I want to move it. At least this is the behaviour on Hera (I'm too busy now at work to reinstall my working laptops).

[jeremypw]

@janxkoci Ah yes, sorry. For most purposes, the text of the name behaves like the icon (at present). The blank part of the name behaviour depends on the operation and whether it is already selected.

This illustrates the intricacy of click handling - there are five different areas within a file item that can be clicked together with four different types of click (single, double, middle, secondary), possible modifiers held down and possible dragging or rubberbanding.

[sagacitysite]

Just wanted to mention that Nautilus fits perfectly fine into the design of elementary. So for everyone who is annoyed from the mixed-mode in Files, just do

sudo apt install nautilus

I gave the mixed-mode of Files a real chance and tried to use it for about one month now, but it's still highly annoying and inconsistent for me personally. Especially opening files with a double click, but opening folders with a single click does not really work out for my user experience and I still do mistakes all the time (beside working with it daily). Since it seems to me that the discussion here is fruitless since it seems to get stuck in details about pros and cons of how click experiences should be (instead of a discussion about the missing double-click option), I decided to try other solutions. And I just wanted to share to you that I have tried Nautilus now and was surprised how great it fits to elementary. It may solve the problem for some of you.

[aral]

@sagacitysite Will give it a whirl. Thanks for the suggestion. (Although my focus is to get stuff fixed in the elementary OS defaults. Which, as you alluded to, is harder because we’re having religious discussions not design discussions but, hopefully, with time…) 🤞

[der-david]

@sagacitysite Thanks for the suggestion, works like a charm and I'll be forced to use it until the double click option is reintroduced.

Being forced to open folders on a single click was not exactly what I expected, when I read the release blog post:

Be in Control & Express Yourself
elementary OS is designed to be easy to use, get out of your way, and not leave the hard decisions to you. At the same time, it exists to empower you to take control of your own devices and data.

With OS 6, we’re empowering you further with new ways to stay in control of your experience—plus new ways to express your own unique style and preferences.

[aral]

Having just had a quick look at Nautilus, I can see exactly where the design errors were made in elementary OS Files.

It seems elementary OS introduced the column view but then tried to unify the gestures across the drill-down based icon/list views (which lose the previous context) and the selective disclosure based columns view (which maintains previous context).

I’ve written extensively about the difference between those views and why they should be treated differently elsewhere so I won’t repeat myself here.

[nevillepark]

Hi, I've waited to weigh in on this until after I'd been using 6.0 for a while.

With Files, single-click opens folders. However, with the file chooser window that shows up whenever you are in an application and need to select a file (to open, to upload, etc.), you still need to double click to open folders. This is a huge inconsistency that is confusing unless you are already familiar with Files, and even as a longtime elementary OS user, the disparity bugs me every time. In my opinion, this warrants restoring Files' double-click-to-open-folders behaviour.

[jeremypw]

I agree this is an inconsistency (which pre-existed before mixed-mode for those using the default single-click mode). The intention is that Files will provide the entire file chooser (provided apps use the FileChooser portal) - at the moment it only modifies the Gtk file chooser by replacing the pathbar.

[nevillepark]

Thanks! Is this planned for the current version of Elementary?

[jeremypw]

As always that depends on whether a developer of sufficient calibre takes an interest in doing it 😜 Not sure I am up to it myself. There are a number of related issues already raised e.g. #129.

[sagacitysite]

Just wanted to mention that another solution was described to bypass the missing double click option. Here someone describes how it is possible to install an older version of Files:

https://elementaryos.stackexchange.com/questions/28547/double-click-option-cant-find-in-elementary-os-odin

By the way: It seems that many in the community are really unhappy with the missing option:

https://www.reddit.com/r/elementaryos/comments/nnwy44/dear_eos6_developers_please_make_files_navigation/

Maybe these two links help a bit to overcome the ignorance from the elementary team against the community.

[sagacitysite]

Some more:

• https://elementaryos.stackexchange.com/questions/28079/cannot-configure-double-click-to-open-a-folder-in-files
• https://elementaryos.stackexchange.com/questions/28500/tray-icon-support-in-elementary-6-odin-single-click-in-file-manager
• https://www.reddit.com/r/elementaryos/comments/p4rgy1/elementary_os_6_odin_flaws/
• https://www.reddit.com/r/elementaryos/comments/pskezx/single_click_is_insane/

Remember, it's about an option! Not about the default behavior.

[janxkoci]

Remember, it's about an option! Not about the default behavior.

But I think this is exactly the problem - elementary devs generally prefer sane defaults over configurable options. As I see it, an option is a no-go, but we may be able to change their mind over the default behaviour. @jeremypw is clearly willing to fix it, all we need is a designer having a look at it.

[andrewdbate]

Is there any interest here in creating a fork of Files?

In general, I'm not a fan of forks, but there has been no engagement from the designers thus far.

The goal would be to allow for configuration (e.g. single vs double click with a setting) but closely tracking upstream where possible.

I've taken a few hours to look into what needs to be done. From a technical point of view, it is relatively straight forwards. The main question is the time required. Ideally I'd like some help to maintain a fork, if anyone has experience or is willing.

[ibrahimrahman]

I have thought of it, and looked into it as well. I think the relevant stuff for this can be found in the commits for #1036, specifically c157755. I don't have much experience in maintaining forks but would be willing to help where ever possible.

Of course, an ideal situation would be a user configurable option in the stock files app but so far apart from Jeremy, nobody from the team seems to be willing to address the issue so I think a fork is going to be the best way forward

[sagacitysite]

I would also support a fork. I also think that it is not the best solution, but as both of you already mentioned, an official solution is currently not foreseeable. I think that many people would really be happy if a fork is available.

My experience in maintaining a fork is also limited, but I would like help wherever possible and would especially help to maintain it in the long run (at least as long as the elementary team does not provide an appropriate solution). If you create a forked repository, you could add me as a collaborator :)

[janxkoci]

Is a full fork needed? In principle you could maintain a repo with a patch, which would be applied over the stock version whenever it's updated.

I imagine this should be easy to achieve e.g. with github submodules, i.e. keeping the stock Files as a submodule of your repo with a patch.

Of course some updates can break your patch, in which case you would need to tweak it or make a new one. But if you want to "track upstream where possible" you would have to do that anyway, except full fork would probably be more complex.

[andrewdbate]

@janxkoci That approach would be worth a try as well to see how well it works in practice. Is this something you are willing to do?

My initial preference would be to fork and use git merging and rebasing to try to follow upstream changes because git will handle changes more intelligently than a patch diff will. For example, if we get a merge conflict with upstream, then once this is resolved, merging upstream changes will not lead to a conflict again. We would have to be disciplined with our git usage, but I actually think that a fork could be easier to track upstream if done right.

A fork would also allow us to introduce other configuration options for users. For example, an option to turn off the overlay the appears when you hover over a directory. I've always found that annoying and it can make scrolling unacceptably slow. That's just an example, but it is the kind of thing that the Elementary maintainers do not wish us to have to control over (and it is our own computer after all).

[cassidyjames]

After reading everything in this discussion (including being called enormously ignorant, calls for forks, cherrypicked Reddit threads, and suggestions to use other apps), it has become clear that this will just continue to snowball and become even less accessible for any actual problem solving for Files. I've responded in a couple of places throughout the threads where I saw some ways to actually address reported issues, and triaged a couple of related issues that had already been filed.

But this grab-bag discussion of "I disagree with a design decision that happens to be informed by the decade history of this app and the hundreds of thousands of users of elementary OS" clearly isn't productive. 🙃

If you have specific issues with how Files works in its current state, please file those issues using the issue templates as that lets us discuss each issue individually, get to the root of it, and move forward with solutions. Otherwise we're not going to get anywhere.